[video] WINE 3 - Mike Johnson
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Hey, this is Mick Wilson with Wine and the Divine. I'm excited to be here with my good friend that I've known, geez, what? 25 years maybe, 20 years,
[00:00:43] Mike Johnson: it's over
[00:00:44] Mick Wilson: 15? I don't... I lost track. Uh, Mike Johnson, and I, I want him on here because as you'll see, first of all, he, he knows his theology, and he loves wine, and he's just a, a good guy.
And I'm really looking forward to this conversation of picking his brain and diving into some of this. Uh, Mike, before we, we go in and start picking your brain, tell... Give us a little quick version of your, your background, what you're doing, uh, now, and, uh, your family.
[00:01:12] Mike Johnson: Yeah, cool. So, uh, I am married and I have four children, and they're all teenagers right now. So I have three boys and one girl, baby girl, and she's... She, uh... Pray for me. my youngest is, uh, the girl, and her name's Genesee, and she's 13 and a half, going on 14. And then I have a 18-year-old son, a 17-year-old son, and a 15-year-old son, and they keep me on my toes, really on my toes.
So they're all doing great. I love them to death, and, uh, we're really close, and we spend a lot of great time together, and yeah, can't, can't complain about my kids and my lovely bride. We've been married for 20 years, so yeah, for a long time. And, uh, we're just feeling like we're just getting started, though, so, uh, good stuff.
And, uh, so in terms of, uh, what do I do for work, um, I've been involved in Christian school education as well as pastoral ministry. So I always kind of, uh, think of myself as a pastor educator, and so whenever I'm working in a Christian school environment, uh, whether as a teacher or administrator, I try to bring the pastoral into the school environment.
And if I'm working in a church, I try to bring the education into the church so that we're doing church-based theological education
[00:02:36] Mick Wilson: CBTE.
[00:02:39] Mike Johnson: Yes. You are, you are well, you, you've done well as a student in, in, uh, church-based theological education. Good job. You passed the test. You passed the test.
[00:02:49] Mick Wilson: full disclosure, Mike and I were, were, were teachers in the Antioch School of Leadership Development, and I learned under Mike on, on how to really work a room and asking good questions, the Socratic or interactive dialogical method. And, uh, uh, just learning so much from you on that, Mike.
That was so fun. It's still ingrained in me on what is the gospel, the implications of the gospel. So fun. So fun. So tell me where you're doing that right now. What, what... I know, but tell
our listeners
[00:03:16] Mike Johnson: yeah, currently I'm at Impact Church in Menifee, California, and I, uh, I'm one of the executive pastors, and I oversee our School of Applied Leadership training, which has training modules for, uh, small group leaders, uh, people learning how to make disciples, um, for our elders, for our deacons, and even for our missionary evangelists.
There is a track that I have developed for each one of those. And, uh, yeah, this year we have 87 students starting on the 13th. So in two weeks, uh, we'll be getting going, um, and it is gonna be a blast, man, helping develop, um, church-based theological education, uh, in, uh, leaders, current leaders. So they have to be currently leading and serving.
So it's a, um, for ser- or in-service model as opposed to a for-service where they're gonna be leading in the future. Instead, they're leading now, um, within the church
[00:04:15] Mick Wilson: so just point, we'll talk about this a little later, just point behind you the stacks of books, uh, that are on, that are horizontal. Those are yours. Those are your books.
[00:04:26] Mike Johnson: Yeah. So which ones are you looking at
[00:04:28] Mick Wilson: I'm the ones you wrote
[00:04:30] Mike Johnson: Oh, these ones right here?
[00:04:33] Mick Wilson: Yeah. No, yeah, the, exactly. All the Antioch content,
[00:04:36] Mike Johnson: yeah, so these, these ones right here. These, these ones right here, uh, over the last five years I've written, uh, about 15 books and then a bunch of periodicals for our SALT seminars. So these are more like, uh, single subject, uh, issues and we did a SALT seminar on the issue.
So this one's, uh, gender sexuality and the gospel, wrote a p- article on it and then also had a panel discussion, uh, with some guests and myself and the pastor. So wrote a lot of these.
[00:05:06] Mick Wilson: And, and for those just listening, uh, and you're driving in the car somewhere, behind me is my wine cellar, uh, that I just... It's my happy place. It's all wine. Behind Mike is all books. It kind of tells you a little bit about our personalities.
[00:05:20] Mike Johnson: Right. Wine and the
[00:05:21] Mick Wilson: wine and the divine right, right here in front of us.
So let's, let's jump in. I, we, we, we've talked about this many times. I just want to riff on it right now. The whole concept of separating the whole idea of spiritual and physical. And it- for those listeners, this isn't heady. This is really practical, where, where spiritual can be seen as something that happens in the church on Sundays, in a, in, when we pray, and then we go and live our, our normal lives, and the two don't meet.
And what I'm trying to wrestle with, with wine and the divine, these aren't two separate worlds. This is seeing the divine in wine, and vice versa, and seeing God in everything. So those two worlds, uh, are called dualism, that are separated by a wall. Tell me a little bit about how you... we got here to this dualistic thinking, and what you feel is a good biblical way of looking at how those two worlds need to overlap more, and the beauty of that.
[00:06:18] Mike Johnson: Yeah. So it kind of goes back to, uh, the whole biblical, the big story of the Bible, right? The, what we call the meta-narrative, so the creation and fall and redemption and restoration, uh, the story that God's telling and how we fit into it. So in the creation, when God made humans, he made us for a purpose.
He... It wasn't because he's lonely and he needed companionship. No, he's always had within the Father, Son, and Spirit, he's ha- been living in divine community for all eternity, so he wasn't lonely. So why did he create us? Well, the scripture tells us in Genesis, uh, 1 that He made man in His image and His likeness.
Uh, and He said, "Be fruitful, multiply, fill the earth, and rule over it." So He made us as partners to be in loving relationship with Him to rule over everything that He created. So there was no divide between that wa- that wa- which was sacred and that which was secular. It was all sacred. All space that was created was sacred, and we were to take Eden, really, and go global with it.
So we were to take what was there in the garden that they were placed in, and they were to multiply and fill the earth and do what? Rule over it, subdue it. Well, why would they have to subdue something, uh, that was perfect? Well, the garden was an idyllic garden environment, but the rest of the Earth, um, probably, uh, was good.
Look, God made it good, but it was unformed. It was, like, raw. Uh, like you would have, uh, like a gold ore in the mountain, you know? You gotta go find it and then purify it and do something with it. So when God made, uh, this world, He wanted us to do something with His great creation, and so He gave... He made us in His image so that we could do that.
But humans, we got, uh, selfish, and we looked at that fruit and we saw... It says that Eve saw that it was not only good for food, but it was a- able to make someone wise. And so she, instead of going to God for the wisdom to rule over planet Earth, they're like, "Well, let's get that wisdom that we need to, to do our ruling from another source."
[00:08:32] Mick Wilson: it's like, it's like a teenager taking the car keys and go, "I, I got this," at 12 years old, 13 years old. Like, no, no.
[00:08:39] Mike Johnson: Yeah, exactly. And so that's where the fracture happens. So there's, there's your division between, uh, the sacred and the secular. It's God walked in the garden with them and there was no issues. But then after this happened, they were escorted out of Eden. You remember that famous, uh, scene where it's the first...
I like to think of it as the first walk of shame, right? They are escorted out of that garden where they are walking with God in, in a, a unindul- adulterated, um, communion with him. So now they cannot perceive the spiritual realm. They cannot see anything that's metaphysical. They can only perceive that which is physical, and now it's in a fallen state
[00:09:21] Mick Wilson: so then the problem... So it started out, if you picture two hula hoops, two circles that were overlapping, that that was man, humanity with God. And then there was a schism, a separation. I, I envision those two circles now separating. And then I would assume in this, this, this meta-narrative that those...
God is somehow bringing those two circles back together again
[00:09:44] Mike Johnson: Yeah, absolutely. So you have a couple of, uh, foreshadowing moments with the tabernacle in the Old Testament. Everything that's in the tabernacle that God tells Moses to make is Eden imagery. So there's pomegranates, there's, uh, leaves and trees and, and gold, and all these things that you see, uh, described there in Eden are in the tabernacle.
So that is a heaven and Earth space where God and man can meet together, um, through the, the blood sacrifice of the lamb, which creates a clean space for humans to meet with God again. So that becomes that Edenic, um, heaven and Earth space. So the goal, though, is to get back to Eden so that h- where heaven and Earth are all, all of it's combined again.
So in the fall, w- on this, uh, iconic moment where Adam and Eve are kind of given, you know, the, the basically the fallout of what happened is, you know, you're gonna work with sweat. You're... the... There's gonna be thorns in the ground. Eve, you're gonna bring forth children with much pain. Uh, in that moment, he looks, uh, God looks at the serpent and says to him, uh, "Your offspring and the woman's offspring or seed is gonna be at war, and, uh, you're gonna strike his heel, but he's gonna crush your head."
[00:11:04] Mick Wilson: so he's setting up in Genesis that there will be someone that will bring restoration, that it's pointing forward. And yeah, and that the whole old covenant, the whole Hebrew scriptures are, are really kind of a giant arrow saying someone has to come and, and bring this heaven on Earth together again.
And how cool would that be if it's someone from heaven and Earth? Whoa, um, leading question. But, what, what I wanna pull out of this meta-narrative is, okay, so God is, is foreshadowing in the Old Testament that there is a, there is a, a one who will come that will bring heaven to Earth, that will re- that will bring restoration between humanity and God, that will fix this schism.
Um, and so r- run with that, but then also riff on a little bit of how we then today, if that's what God is doing, that how we still have this old model of spiritual in that room and everything else in this room. When we walk out of church or leave church, we just click off and go... It, it's just dualistic thinking.
So riff a little bit about the promise and how Jesus fulfilled that, and then why we are still back in that dualism.
[00:12:14] Mike Johnson: Yeah. Um, I think, w- uh, no, there's a lot there obviously, and so I'll try to summarize. Uh, when Christ came, he came to fulfill that promise that God gave to Eve. Uh, and all of the Old Testament is really the question we should be asking is, is this the one? And you think might be Noah, you know? God gives the same command to Noah and his children right after they get off the ark to go be fruitful, multiply, fill the Earth.
So it's almost exactly the same words. Actually, it is the same words that are given to
[00:12:47] Mick Wilson: yeah, could it be Moses? Could it be Abraham? Could it be David? Like, nope, nope, nope.
[00:12:51] Mike Johnson: all these people. So you're looking for that. That's how you're supposed to read the Old Testament, and each one of them, there's a foreshadowing. It's like it comes to David, and a promise is given that, yeah, an offspring of David will be the king who will rule permanently and perfectly.
So that's a foreshadowing of y- yet one who is to come. And so Jesus, when you open the pages of the, the New Testament and the Gospels, the Gospel writer, especially Matthew and Luke, give you those genealogies. Why? Because the promise that was given so that you could see, hey, he, he fits the bill. He c- he could be this one, and he is this one.
He's descendant of Abraham and descendant of David, so he f- fulfills that, um, covenant promise Yes Yes
[00:13:45] Mick Wilson: God is at hand, turn. And that, that I'm bringing a new reality, I'm bringing a new covenant, uh, that I'm gonna pivot here. Let, l- oh, but first, by, by the way, I forgot. Tell me the wine you're drinking, 'cause you gotta, you have to do this
[00:13:59] Mike Johnson: so unfortunately this is just
[00:14:02] Mick Wilson: that's a...
fine real crystal glass
[00:14:04] Mike Johnson: Oh yeah, it's right out of a box too, so so I wish I could tell you, Mick, this is Wilson Creek wine in a nice glass that I'm sitting there with you and we're enjoying it together, but I, I can't say that. So, uh, I'm just ha- I'm having just
what I got available, what I had available.
[00:14:22] Mick Wilson: it's a box of wine in a plastic cup and I love it. That's awesome. Sometimes that's,
[00:14:27] Mike Johnson: I wish I could say it's on- only the first time I've ever done that.
[00:14:30] Mick Wilson: Ah, Dixie Cups work well
[00:14:32] Mike Johnson: Actually, we shared, you and I shared boxed wine in a hotel in Ames, Iowa about 15 years ago.
[00:14:41] Mick Wilson: remember,
[00:14:41] Mike Johnson: Yeah, and my redemption in this whole scenario is you bought that boxed wine.
[00:14:47] Mick Wilson: I will not admit it. Um, but actually, it actually tasted pretty
[00:14:51] Mike Johnson: It was good. It was good. Not gonna lie. I
[00:14:53] Mick Wilson: not gonna lie. So, so now Jesus comes... I- this is what I love what John does is the, the gospel writer is he's making a statement that there are seven signs, and each of these signs or miracles that he does, the signs don't point to themselves, they point to something else, and the first sign is the wedding at Cana, turning water into wine.
And also John there says that Jesus is, in a representative way, saying that he is this ultimate bridegroom that the Old Testament talks about, the Hebrew scriptures, that God is a bridegroom that is pursuing his wayward bride, and that Jesus, at a wedding, John is saying, "This is the bridegroom coming on the scene now," and water into wine.
So tell me, what, what is... Was it just a magic trick? I mean, what, what's the water into wine thing going on, and what is that symbolizing?
[00:15:41] Mike Johnson: Oh man, there's so many beautiful things in that story. Um, we think about it as the first miracle that Jesus does. And, and I have no personal commitment to old Earth, young Earth. I like to listen, uh, I like to hear science and, and, uh, biblical theologians go around and around on the all of this. I don't think that's what Genesis 1 and 2 are talking about.
I don't think you can answer those questions from those, uh, yeah, from those ancient te- texts, but fascinating. Look, think about this. Jesus' first miracle, he makes something in an instant that would take a very long time and a very long process. So if God made humans right out of the dust in an instant, he made something out of nothing that would've taken a long time.
Um, not out of nothing nothing, but out of the dust of the ground. So he took the, the ceremonial, uh, jugs of water, and he made something that would've taken a very long time to create. Um, also think of the, the universe itself and where this story is going. I think all of, uh, the Old Testament is pointing obviously towards that final restoration and that promise that God gave not only to Eve, but also Abraham, that through him, all the nations of the, the world will be blessed, and they'll be healed through the descendants a- and the seed of Abraham.
So I think that that wedding is pointing to the ultimate wedding that's gonna take place between, uh, God and man in a reuniting of being in His presence, uh, where Heaven and Earth come back together again. So everything's always pointing back to Eden as well as forward to the new Jerusalem. So in the Canaan first miracle, you see a reflection of creation, but you also see a reflection of ultimate destination all in one story
[00:17:37] Mick Wilson: now when, when you and I were talking about this, uh, uh, months ago, you said something just hap- just off the cuff. You said, "Oh yeah, that's talking about two covenants." And I went, "Oh. Oh yeah, of course." But it just, it just opened... And so I took that statement and ran with it, and the whole thing opened up in the sense that you've got the, the, the old covenant, water; new covenant, wine, and that Jesus was not pouring out and getting rid of, replacing.
He was transforming. Uh, so talk a little bit about what John is representing and what Jesus is bringing.
[00:18:19] Mike Johnson: Yeah, so it is, um, something that was intended to give life. You know, water brings life, right? But ultimately what had happened, especially at the time of Jesus, is that Old Covenant was, was, uh, bringing about death. It had, had sh- shown a light on human frailty and failure, um, and that mankind cannot, uh, through their own efforts, um, make their way back into the divine presence of God.
And so even the covenant, as good as it was, um, to show, you know, human sin and need, and need for sacrifice, need for a redemption, um, uh, we could not do that on our own, so we needed a new covenant, uh, of the heart where God would come and dwell within us. And so that that wine represents that joy and that vibrance that comes when we enjoy that wine.
The water was to bring life, um, but we needed something more than that because it, it didn't, it didn't bring life. Uh,
it, it brought about death
[00:19:22] Mick Wilson: I think that's-- it gets back to that dualism. Here, Jesus does this not at the temple, not, he-- not in a synagogue. He does it at a flipping wedding. And he does it also, you know, theology aside, he does it to save the butt of the, of the, of the, the, the, the, the people hosting, because if you're a host, as you know, in that, that time, that those weddings go on for a while, as they do right now in some areas in, in Greece and the Mid East.
You run out of wine, you're basically saying, "I don't care about you. I, I didn't plan enough. I'm a bonehead." So Jesus saved that guy's reputation, but it's what's behind it, I think what you're saying is, is more powerful. But he does this at a wedding where boots on the ground and sandals on the ground s- you know, bringing the joy and saving the joy.
It--
[00:20:08] Mike Johnson: Yeah
[00:20:09] Mick Wilson: and, a-and then even riff with this a little bit with me, that the amount of wine that he converted, that those jars were ceremonial jars for, for ritual cleansing. It's like, "Nope, don't need that anymore 'cause I make you clean." But it came out to about a pallet, a little bit like a pallet and a half of wine.
So imagine you're at a wedding, wine's running out, all of a sudden you come in with a pallet and a half of the best wine, Screaming Eagle, whatever, and, uh...
[00:20:40] Mike Johnson: Yeah.
[00:20:41] Mick Wilson: Right? I mean, so, so run with...
[00:20:43] Mike Johnson: not the boxed stuff.
[00:20:44] Mick Wilson: Yeah. So, so tell me, r-run a little bit like why at a wedding and why, uh, what that, what's, what's John saying that this isn't some ghost floating around, that this is happening in real life here now?
[00:20:57] Mike Johnson: Yeah. Yeah. Uh, again, I think it's a beautiful picture of the sacred and secular coming back together again in Jesus, where, uh, heaven and earth are separated, uh, because of the fall. But, um, God is always trying to, uh, foreshadow and bring these sacred spaces like, uh, tabernacle and temple to show that his desire is always to be with man.
Uh, Book of Revelation, where we do see this wedding feast of the lamb, where we, um, as the body of Christ, the, the family of God come together as a bride adorned for the groom, you see a wedding there. So the, the, uh, culmination of the story is a wedding. So I think Jesus is foreshadowing and showing that, hey, when this all does come about, um, this picture that we're, we're celebrating right now is the ultimate picture of what humans in the divine will, will look like.
And so in that, uh, last part of the Bible, um, contrary to popular opinion, most people think when we as Christians die and go to heaven, we're there forever and ever and ever in a disembodied state somehow on clouds playing harps, and, uh, that's just not the picture we see. God made us physical. He made us to be physical beings.
And so the end of the story is the same as the beginning, but there's a multitude from every tribe, tongue, people, and nation instead of just one single solitary couple. So it's starts in a garden environment, but it ends in a garden city where you still have that tree of life and you have the water of life flowing out from the throne of God.
And so the leaves of the tree are bringing health and healing to all the nations. So beautiful, um, metaphors and, and pictures there of, of what this is all gonna look like. Um, but it says very specifically that, uh, God, we don't descent... or, or ascend to go be with God. It says that, "And God descends." He comes down from heaven, and it says, "And the dwelling place of God is with man."
So his desire is al- has always been for us to rule and reign forever on a, a, a beautiful earth that he created, again, good, but needs to be developed. So the picture is Jesus Christ is the king who will be reigning and ruling in that forever kingdom, and we as his brothers and sisters, as his family, will rule and reign with him forever and ever and ever.
[00:23:36] Mick Wilson: and that goes against some of the theology that maybe some listeners, I, I definitely was kind of rooted in, is the whole escapism. That the whole idea is get your ticket to heaven, get up and out. It's an evacuation plan, and then you become some kind of floating being. Uh, I... What you're saying is so much more profound and earthy, that there's a sense of God bringing heaven to Earth, that He comes to Earth.
It's not gonna blow up the Earth and then evacuate up into the clouds. It's, it's
[00:24:09] Mike Johnson: We will be in bodies. Physic- we
will
[00:24:11] Mick Wilson: physical bodies, new bodies of course. Uh
[00:24:14] Mike Johnson: Glorified bodies according to, uh, Paul in 1 Corinthians 15, that our bodies now are kinda like an acorn, so we get a sense they're physical things. But then think of the acorn, and then it becomes this mighty oak tree. So what we will become is far greater than what we are now, but they're still physical
[00:24:33] Mick Wilson: And then how do you tell an acorn, "Hey, you're gonna be this"? The acorn's like, "Uh..." And that's what Paul says. We have no idea what's ahead of us with our glorified bodies, what's happening. Uh,
[00:24:43] Mike Johnson: Other than Jesus' glorified body. So when he rose
[00:24:45] Mick Wilson: go. There's clues,
[00:24:46] Mike Johnson: he was able to, like, appear on the road with those two cats walking to Emmaus, and then he's in the room with them, breaks the bread. They all of a sudden have their eyes open, and then he's gone. Boom. So he was able to do some things that our physical bodies can't do currently.
Uh, so it's good. It's fun to think about and, uh, to conjecture,
[00:25:07] Mick Wilson: Yeah. In, in, in First Corinthians, the, the, the, uh, term our perishable, perishable bodies take on imperishable. And when I hear that word perishable, I'm 63 right now. I just got back from a physical therapist, and my knee is taped right now. My shoulder hurts, my ankles hurt. I-- Everything hurts, and I am perishing. So the whole idea of taking on imperishable is something I'm kind of looking forward to.
[00:25:34] Mike Johnson: Yeah, absolutely. But it's not disembodied. It's not an imperishable that's like a ghost. And that's our modern concept of heaven and God and eternity is this ghost-like experience in an ethereal realm. So I think there's two... Like you talked about one extreme that we should avoid, and that's escapism, that we're somehow gonna get out of here.
I think the other extreme we should avoid is also, uh, that somehow this is it. Like we're, we're in it.
This
[00:26:04] Mick Wilson: eat, drink, and marry for tomorrow we die, right?
yeah,
[00:26:07] Mike Johnson: this is, this is the ultimate, and the kingdom of God is actually here. You know, this is it. So this is all we got to look forward to. Let's make the most of it. Uh, so I think both of those, escaping and then overly embracing, uh, both are missed.
And I think that the, um, scholars I really appreciate talk about, um, the redemption that Jesus Christ brought in his first coming and the full restoration he will bring when he comes again, that until then and while we live in the in between, it's an already not yet. So the kingdom of God is already here.
It's represented in spirit-filled believers. Uh, we are to bring that a- awareness of God and his kingdom into all of our spheres of influence. And so it's already here, um, but it's here in part, and it's not yet what it will be, uh, when Christ returns
[00:27:00] Mick Wilson: Mm-hmm. Now, the, the other thing that you and I have talked a lot about, 'cause I've been wrestling with this whole John chapter 15 where Jesus makes an audacious statement that he is the vine and we are the branches. I, I just big, big picture before we dive into some of those, uh, kind of... I mean, you can just take one verse and you go down a wormhole forever.
Uh, that it's just so good. But the whole idea of, of following Christ, of being in Christ, of, of being a Christian, even though that term comes with so much baggage. Of, "Well, are you a Christian?" Well, what do you mean by
[00:27:36] Mike Johnson: Yeah. Yeah
[00:27:37] Mick Wilson: But, but the whole idea where Jesus says, "I'm the vine and you're the branches," there's a connection.
There's an interpenetration of natures. There's a sense of the di- of, uh... It was a patristic theologian that said that God became man so that man, humanity, can become like God. Mm-hmm. that not that we become gods, but that our image of God, theosis, our... That our image... Yeah, look up theosis, uh, for the Greek Orthodox people out there.
I think there was
something to It's beautiful.
[00:28:07] Mike Johnson: Yeah.
[00:28:08] Mick Wilson: something to that. But tell me a little bit about the typical view that people would have of what it means to be a Christian and what the vine and branches do to kind of blow that up.
[00:28:18] Mike Johnson: Yeah. And I think a lot of people think that be- to be a Christian is following a set of rules, um, that the Bible is a rule book of some kind. I grew up in Christian school myself, and so, uh, I was taught from a very young age that Bible, the word Bible, is an acronym, Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth, and it's not that.
It's not escapism to try to leave Earth, and it's not just basic instructions. It's a story. It's a story that God's telling and how we fit into it. So it's super important for us to know that to be a Christian means that we are on the receiving end. We are not on the earning end. We're not trying to earn our way with God.
We're not trying to somehow appease this, uh, angry, um, God. Instead, God was appeased in Jesus Christ, and so he is no longer... That's what the word propitiation means. That's a big, uh, $3 million
New Testament word, that God is propitiated towards us, meaning he's favorly- favorably disposed towards us because of Christ Jesus and what he's done for us, so that God is looking for us to come to him to receive this gift of salvation in him.
And so to be a Christian is to humbly receive what God is offering to us that we can never earn on our own. So it's not a, a list of instructions that we need to follow before we leave Earth. No, just the opposite. It's, um, a gift of relationship that is given to us because of what Christ has done, uh, so that we can experience the joy of God, uh, in this Earth, and then ultimately, in the new heaven and new Earth that, that Jesus will inaugurate, um, or consummate when he returns.
So that's a, a very important aspect of being a Christian. A Christian is someone who is, one, receiving what God has already done, but also living in hope of what is still coming. And I love what Tim Keller said in his, uh, book on resurrection. Uh, he was battling cancer at the time he wrote this book, but he, he said, "The resurrection of Jesus Christ is not just something that gives us hope for the future.
The resurrection of Jesus gives us hope from the future for the present."
[00:30:46] Mick Wilson: Yep
[00:30:47] Mike Johnson: And so that is the picture of the Christian life, is that we have, uh, joy in this life. We have abundance in this life because we know Christ. Uh, eternal life is to know the one true God in Jesus Christ, him, whom he has sent, John 17, uh, one and two, um, and three.
And so that's, that's the Christian life, is knowing God, walking with God, and then living in hope of that full kingdom when Christ returns.
[00:31:14] Mick Wilson: now on, on John 17, there's that passage in there that still blows my mind, and I don't think we... There's mystery to it, but there's also beauty to it, where Jesus says, "I pray that they may be one as the, as I'm in the Father and the Father is in me." Uh, so there's a sense of this union of not just us believing in something out there, which is true, but something that happens when we are drawn into the life of God, and that through his Spirit, that life of God is now in us.
Paul, of course, uses the, the term in Christ o- over 100 times. But that whole union life, I mean, it, that's so... It's so ethereal sometimes. But to me, that, that's a, a big core that we miss. Kind of talk a little bit about vine and branches and union life.
[00:32:07] Mike Johnson: Yeah. Yeah. It's we were estranged offspring of God. Paul says to the Athenians, uh, he's quoting actually from, um, Epimenides, one of the Cretan philosophers that was hundreds of years before Jesus, when he says, "In Him we live and move and have our very being." And Epimenides was talking about Zeus. He wasn't even talking about, uh, the divine, uh, Christian God, Yahweh.
Uh, but, but Paul applies it to Yahweh and, and he says, "In Him we live and move and have our very being." And so, um, when we are, um, thinking about the, the divine and how God made us, He made us to know Him and live in Him, and in Him we live and move and have our very being. Um, and so, um, to be connected, vitally connected to God, um, is to understand what humanity is.
He made us in His image for divine communion with Him, and so that's why we exist. That's why we're here. We're here to be in communion with God, and He's also given us jobs to do. Like any family, you know, if you're part of a family, you have a contribution to make too. You're not just sitting around doing nothing.
You're part of that. It's like, uh, so in the New Testament, especially in the book of Philippians, um, G. Walter Hansen really brings out the idea of, um, a family business. So the word koinonia, a fellowship, is about being in business with God. And so we are bringing the gospel to all of our spheres of influence because we're vitally connected to God and to His life and to His family, and so we're in this communion with Him.
So we are no longer estranged offspring who are outside of the house looking in the window.
[00:34:01] Mick Wilson: Mm-hmm.
[00:34:01] Mike Johnson: We are now inside the house as adopted children around the table.
[00:34:07] Mick Wilson: you go. Mm-hmm.
[00:34:08] Mike Johnson: the picture. So we are now, we now inherit the Kingdom of God with Jesus. So Ephesians 1, beautiful passage to meditate on. We're seated with Christ in the heavenly realm, and we receive the Holy Spirit as Christians as a down payment, as just a reminder that, hey, you belong to God.
You have the Spirit now, but what that Spirit is supposed to be telling you is that you are in His forever kingdom as a child, and you will inherit the whole kingdom with Jesus. So that's what it means to be vitally connected with God. "I am the vine. You are the branches. If you abide in me and I in you, that you will gonna, you're gonna bear much fruit.
Apart from me you can do nothing, but connected to me, you're gonna bear much fruit for my kingdom." And so because we're in the family now, we're around that table, and we will inherit forever
what God has to offer Jesus
[00:35:02] Mick Wilson: And a thought on this, you're pissing me off right now because I'm-- Mike, for those listeners, I'm, I'm writing a book on wine and the divine. I don't know what I'm gonna call it, maybe Wine and the Divine. But Mike has been my theological editor on this, and what ticks me off is I write a chapter, he says, "What about this?
What about this?" I go, "Crap." Even right now as you're talking about this,
[00:35:24] Mike Johnson: rewriting
[00:35:25] Mick Wilson: that whole vision of looking in a window versus seated at the table, that's good stuff. I'll footnote you, but now I gotta
[00:35:32] Mike Johnson: Yeah.
[00:35:33] Mick Wilson: and put that in there or see where it can fit. Rich, rich, rich stuff.
[00:35:38] Mike Johnson: Yeah.
[00:35:38] Mick Wilson: so that's what I, I... You know, the whole vine and branches continues to blow me away.
I walk through the vines every day and stare at these things. And, and, and, and on that too, that when he talks about that if you abide in me or if you remain in me, you stay in me, like you abide in that household, in that table, so to speak, that you will produce... you will bear much fruit.
[00:36:02] Mike Johnson: Right.
[00:36:02] Mick Wilson: Yeah, and how that's different from producing fruit.
So how does that life of fruit, or I think what fruit is talking about in John chapter 15 is sacrificial love. "Love one another as I have loved you." If that's the fruit, how does that happen in our lives? How do we get that fruit in us? How do we bear it
because of the connection? Where one end, it's not passivity, where we're just sitting, "Okay, God, move in me," and the other one is we're just so burned out and busy, but barren.
What's that bearing fruit look like?
[00:36:36] Mike Johnson: Yeah. So it is connectivity, right? You're-- like you're saying, staying connected to the vine. Jesus said, "I'm the vine, you're the branches. Remain in me. Stay connected to me." Because those branches don't have to strive or struggle to produce fruit. If they are connected to the vine, that natural sap, all that l- uh, uh, beautiful life that's flowing through it, is gonna naturally come out, uh, of that vine.
And so that's the picture we have of that divine life and that theosis connection with God, so that He's bearing the fruit through us. But we do have to remain connected to Him. And so, um, you know, Paul talks about, um, put off the old man and its old ways of doing things, and put on the new humanity in Christ Jesus.
So remaining in Christ has, uh, to do with, I gotta stay connected to God. I, I have a choice that I could spend my life, I may be a Christian, but I could spend my life doing things that are not gonna bear fruit for eternity. Paul in 1 Corinthians 13 uses a different metaphor of building a house, building a structure, and he says, "We can build upon the foundation of Jesus in our lives either with wood, hay, and straw, or silver, gold, and precious stones."
He says, "If you build with wood, hay, and straw, when your life's over and you pass through that fire, so to speak, into eternity, the works of your life are gonna be burned up, but you'll be saved as through fire," like w- by the skin of your teeth, so to speak. Um, so our salvation is not based upon our works, but it seems as if our eternal experience of God, uh, will be somehow related to our faithfulness, our de- our dependence upon Him, staying connected to Him, bearing fruit, uh, in our lives.
Um, so it's not something that cr- should create anxiety or stress in us, but it's one of those things where, "Hey, I am not that guy anymore. I'm not that old man," you know? "I'm not that old humanity. I'm new in Christ, and so I wanna remain in Him. I wanna be in places and do things that are gonna help, um, nurture that relationship with Jesus as opposed to be in places that are, are not gonna nurture that."
So, um, whether you call those spiritual disciplines or just the s- the state of your mind and your heart being in, in communion with God and with his people, I think bearing fruit has a lot to do with remaining in Jesus in a lot of different facets, a lot of different ways. But it all begins with, um, that, that first, that connection with, with Jesus himself, and just coming to him humbly and saying, "I need you."
[00:39:20] Mick Wilson: And, and, and on that too that, that there are the... As you, as you know in John, every time it says you, it's plural to y'all, that he's not talking to us Western individualistic thinkers. Uh, he-- first of all, he's, John's writing to first century readers, but of course the Bible is not written to us. It's written kind of for us.
[00:39:42] Mike Johnson: Yeah, it's
[00:39:42] Mick Wilson: And it... Yeah, and that's John Walton. I love his work on that. But tell me a little bit about the sense of... Man, there's, there's a sense of these believers in that time were going through a lot of suffering. They're going through a lot of trials, a lot of hardships, and of course we are too. But part of that is the y'all.
How can we, people, we all experience together that's not just me and Jesus? And we can listen to podcasts, we can do re- listen to videos, but there's something about connecting with people. But also at the same time, there's pruning involved that Jesus talked about. John 15:2, "My Father is the vineyard manager," but he's a fatherly vineyard manager, and he shapes, he cuts things off, that I don't think he's causing things in my theology.
We... That's a whole different discussion. But somehow using, maybe that's my way around it. But talk a little bit about the y'all
[00:40:38] Mike Johnson: Yeah.
[00:40:39] Mick Wilson: and pruning.
[00:40:40] Mike Johnson: Yeah, so I think the y'all, uh, in much of the New Testament, the instruction that's given in the letters at least, uh, the plural is used there. We don't see that in English. We, we only see you. You know, the instruction is you. So we read it as... You know, especially Americans, we're very individualistic, so we read that as me.
So when it says, uh, uh, "He who has begun a good work in you will carry it to completion," in Philippians 1:6, we like, we think, "Oh, God's gonna complete the work in my life." Although that doctrine or that, that theology is good, what he's saying is to the Philippian church. He saw, "I know you've been with me since the beginning of my ministry, and you've been faithful, you've been giving, so I'm confident in this very thing that He's begun a good work in you all will continue to complete it until the day when Christ returns."
So, um, yeah, not a lot of New Testament is written in that plural form, and, uh, unfortunately for a lot of us who have church hurt and we've just been, we've just been disappointed by the church or leadership or people, uh, that call themselves Christians that are not very Christ-like, um, th- what I'm saying right now about you gotta be connected to a body of believers and live this stuff out together, uh, you hear that and you get like, "Ugh.
I don't wanna do that. I don't like Christians," you know? "I like Jesus, I don't like the Church." There's a whole book written about that very topic. And, uh, I know lots and lots of people, and I would say the same thing. I'd be like, "Yeah, and you know what? I'm with you. I don't like the Church very much either, and I don't like a lot of leaders in the Church, and I'd be one," you know?
So what do you do? What do you do? It's like, well, I think we need to see ourselves as part of the solution and not part of the problem. Um, you cannot reform or change something from the outside. You have to be in. You have to be in it to be part of the... be the change, right? So I think, um, being connected to a body of believers and try to find people who are sincere in trying to do it, but there's nobody perfect.
You're gonna get your feelings hurt. You're gonna hurt other people. And, uh, to retreat from fellowship and retreat from the body of Christ, uh, is to be part of the problem of, of fracture and disintegration instead of unity that God is building into His church. So there is always going to be the need for repentance, for forgiveness, for reconciliation in the Church.
So, um, to be with, uh, y'all and to be connected to the body of Christ, you need to go in with eyes wide open that it's not gonna be all bunnies and roses and rainbows. It is going to be, "Hey, we need to talk this through." Um, it's just like marriage, it's just like family. Um, the church is a family of families.
That's what the church is. Um, Paul over and over again calls it a family. Uh, in Ti- uh, in Timothy, uh, 1 Timothy 3 talks about the church being the family of God. So think about that. God is Father, right? Jesus is the Son. We are the bride. So it's all- familial language, and we are the household of God. And he says, he goes on to say that the household of God is the pillar and the support of the truth.
So even though we're imperfect, this gospel message is to flow through us, and it's... N.T. Wright said something, uh, in one of his books that I read 30 years ago, and it kind of changed my life in terms of what is the Church. He said, "The Church really is nothing more or less than little outposts of the Kingdom of God where forgiveness is received and extended and given to others."
[00:44:12] Mick Wilson: Mm-hmm.
[00:44:13] Mike Johnson: Forgiveness is received, and it's given. I'm like, "That's really simplistic but beautiful." Yeah, that's what the Church is. It's outposts of the Kingdom of God where we're receiving God's forgiveness and restoration to Him, but also we're offering forgiveness and restoration towards each other
[00:44:31] Mick Wilson: and, and that's where you grow because that's hard. It, it-- Yeah, exa-
that, that's where you g- you get shaped by others and, and you go through that. It's easy just to sit back, and I've heard this multiple times and I get it for those people that said, "Well, I'm spiritual but not religious." What they're saying is, "Well, I believe in God, but I'm not c- I'm not connected to the institutional church."
I get that, as you were saying. But there's a sense, un-
[00:44:54] Mike Johnson: I love it when people say I don't like organized religion, and I'm like, "You like unorganized religion?"
But yeah. No, no, no. Yeah, so it, it is what it is. It's family, and family hurts, and family stings, and family can be ugly and awkward and,
[00:45:09] Mick Wilson: But we need family.
[00:45:10] Mike Johnson: But we need it.
We
[00:45:11] Mick Wilson: We need that family to point things out in our lives to grow. So the whole idea of I am the vine and y'all are the branches. It's we all... And so you're abiding together. And, uh, you mentioned N.T. Wright, uh, it's the N.T. Wright or Tom Wright. He's-- If anyone's... Just read Tom Wright. He, he has a new book.
Mike, I'm sure you've read this. You've-- I'm like a look behind you. It's on Ephesians, and he
[00:45:36] Mike Johnson: I have a whole Tom Wright section.
[00:45:38] Mick Wilson: Yeah, nice. And, and, and he says that the church, and I'm butchering this, is a working model of new creation.
[00:45:46] Mike Johnson: Yeah.
[00:45:47] Mick Wilson: So when Jesus is initiating this new covenant, this, this resurrected community, what's this look like?
And it's a working model of new creation. It's, it's where people from different ethnicities and backgrounds or religions are gathering and working their stuff out together, which is hard. And that's Romans, Jew and Gentile coming together, the book of Romans. So you, you, you see... And Galatians, where Paul is, is seeing that these, these, th- they're, they're trying to separate back in their own tribes, in their own camps.
So N.T. Wright, can't recommend him enough. Hey, I got some speed questions for you here. But by the way, I didn't talk about this, the, the one I'm drinking, I'm, I'm self-promoting here. This is our, our Cab Zin, Cabernet Zinfandel combo at Wilson Creek. It is just smooth as silk. It's just buttery. Um, it's now in the midday and
[00:46:38] Mike Johnson: thanks for rubbing it in,
Nick.
[00:46:40] Mick Wilson: Yeah. We, we, we, we got a... Mike, Mike's favorite wine back in the day was our Moveedra. My mom says, "Move over, dear," or the French say Moveed. Um, so speed, speed round. What is your favorite wine experience? It could be with a bottle, a glass, a tasting, in a, in a home,
[00:46:58] Mike Johnson: Yeah. Uh, my wife and I took a cruise, uh, years and years ago, and we- that particular cruise was going up and down the California coast, and one of the stops, believe it or not, was Santa Barbara. I didn't even know that was a stop.
[00:47:12] Mick Wilson: Hold on, get the picture. I think I saw... Yeah, there. Yeah,
[00:47:14] Mike Johnson: so here's, here's, our picture of my wife at that s- yeah, Jamie at that stop, so you can see the wine bottles in back of her.
Um, and, uh, we, we... It was right there on the pier in Santa Barbara, so we didn't have to go far to, to find that little place for wine tasting. And yeah, it was just a beautiful day. Uh, we walked around, took that picture. To this day, it's probably one of my favorite pictures of my wife, and one of her favorite pictures too, and just that whole day was just full of joy and, uh, reminiscing.
Uh, every time that we had one... Like, we- she was pregnant with one of our kids, we'd go on a cruise, um, before the baby was born. And so, uh, we'd have someone come and watch our previous kids, and then we'd take off and go on a cruise. Um, so this was not one of those, so we were not pregnant on this one. This, so this was one of the only ones where we did, we just were trying to get away and have time together.
Uh, so I would say that was probably my favorite wine experience because it was more than just the wine. It was the wine, and the environment, and the company, and the whole travel experience all kind of rolled into one
[00:48:23] Mick Wilson: B- b- b- before I get to question two, I wanna put a side note here, is that Mike and I and some other people, some other guys, we connect every other week at Wilson Creek for lunch, and we drink wine, and someone'll toss out a question about theology. We banter it around, rich conversations, sharing lives together, uh, what people are wrestling with.
To me, that thing every other week that we do is really, really powerful for me, and I think a lot of that is your influence there. You have a master's of divinity from Gordon-Conwell. You failed to mention that in the beginning. Come on now.
[00:48:58] Mike Johnson: Yeah. I have some experience in education,
[00:49:00] Mick Wilson: a little bit. You were superintendent of schools in the, in the, at, at,
[00:49:04] Mike Johnson: Did some PhD work at Biola, so I, yeah, I have some experience in education.
[00:49:08] Mick Wilson: bit, a little bit.
Just a
[00:49:09] Mike Johnson: but
[00:49:09] Mick Wilson: teaching under your belt. Um,
[00:49:11] Mike Johnson: I love the church-based theological education. That's what I wanted to underscore.
[00:49:14] Mick Wilson: I like the winery-based theological education. I
[00:49:16] Mike Johnson: Hey, I like that
[00:49:17] Mick Wilson: Yeah, WBT.
[00:49:18] Mike Johnson: Well, we are the church, right?
We are the church, so
[00:49:21] Mick Wilson: So next, next big question is book. What book has influenced you profoundly, maybe recently or something, as you mentioned, N.T. Wright's book back in the day?
[00:49:29] Mike Johnson: Yeah. Yeah, that would be a big one. I would say the authors that have shaped me the most have been, uh, Wright, uh, Keller. Um, there's this, uh, one, uh, theologian, his name is Luke Timothy Johnson, and I used him, uh, quite a bit in my master's thesis, um, that I wrote on a theology of leadership development. And, uh, he's a Catholic theologian, and his focus is, um, biblical theology.
So what is the author's intent? And so he wrote a book called, um, the, uh, "Writings of the New Testament." And so for any time that I pick up a book from the New Testament, I always look at his little overview 'cause he does such a good job of just drawing out the author's intent and the language that's used there in the Greek and what that would have meant to the original audience.
So you get a lot of language, you get a lot of culture. Um, and he deals with, uh, higher criticism stuff, too. Um, and so he'll, he'll kinda debunk some of the stuff that is out there in terms of like, this wasn't written by this person or this was d- different, you know, letters, uh, uh, as opposed to one whole, you know, argument.
Anyway, so I have found him to be refreshing. Uh, like I said, Tim Keller, N.T. Wright, um, uh, Jeff Reed with, uh, Build International and the Antioch stuff. I love his stuff on church-based theological education. That's been formative for me and even what I'm doing right now, that I've really taken to heart things that he said about, um, that the church really should be the place where most theological education is taking place.
And instead of sending away our best and brightest, let's develop them within, um, the, the confines of the church and within real ministry
[00:51:13] Mick Wilson: that's such a paradigm shift. But within the church, you've got the, what Mike's talking about, it's a model that has a three-legged stool. Um, typically they're shipped out, these candidates for ministry, they go to seminary, they come back, and
there's not...
[00:51:27] Mike Johnson: back.
[00:51:27] Mick Wilson: Or never come back. Good point. And yet the three-legged stool, one is mentoring, and that happens within the church context.
The other is content, and the third is practicum, that you're in ministry and...
[00:51:39] Mike Johnson: heart, and hands, baby.
[00:51:40] Mick Wilson: Yeah, and head, heart, hands, and you're, you're doing head, heart, hands, and you're doing all those together
[00:51:46] Mike Johnson: Yeah
[00:51:46] Mick Wilson: at the basic church level, and you're working this out with people around you, in community with a mentor, and you're learning and, and,
[00:51:53] Mike Johnson: we've used that s- that model here when we developed SALT, our School of Applied Leadership Training. So that's the model, head, heart, and hands. They're serving, they're doing practicum, they have a mentor who is helping them process just their personal life and how they're connecting with the Lord and with their family and with ministry and other people.
Uh, and then they're learning in the classes that we've developed and the content that we've written. Um, yeah, so I would say the Build International, B-I-L-D, and the Antioch School helped me shape the curriculum with the kerygma and didache, the gospel, and the implications of the gospel. I talk about the gospel in terms of those four movements, creation, fall, redemption, and restoration, and the implications are like a ripple effect, right?
It starts with my identity, and then I bring that new identity in Christ into all my relationships, beginning with, like, my, my most intimate, so that means my marriage, my children, my family, and then into my church family, and then the city, society, and world. It's like that, it ripples out, and it has to go in that order.
Otherwise, it's hypocritical. You know, if I'm ministering out there but I skip over my family, and I'm not loving them and I'm not ministering to them, then I'm missing something. So that whole paradigm of church-based theological education and kerygma, didache, gospel implications, how we've come to talk about it here in terms of those four movements and the ripple effect, has really shaped a lot of what I do.
Uh, and so I have to attribute that a lot to Jeff Reed and to my, um, seminary professor, Gary Parrett. He's the one who really shared with me that head, heart, and hands, um, paradigm. And, uh, he did his whole, um, uh, doctorate on head, heart, and hands and how that works out in Christian education. So I definitely owe that to him.
Um, and then just, there's, there's so many voices, so many books and so many voices that have helped tweak and shape and help that
[00:53:50] Mick Wilson: So I'm gonna, I'm gonna, uh, ask a, a, a, a closing question here as we wrap this up. Um, I love wine, and I know you do too. Just when you look at wine, just give me a couple things that come to mind on how this, that is so beautiful, so amazing, uh, and the experience of it, you talked about the table,
[00:54:14] Mike Johnson: Mm-hmm.
[00:54:15] Mick Wilson: can reveal who God is.
Uh, you know, and, and of course there's, there's the downsides of the alcoholism and addiction. I get all that. But with the upside of wine and the divine, tell me in your view the beauty of what wine brings.
[00:54:28] Mike Johnson: I think the most, um, significant and powerful thing that I've ever learned from you, my friend, is that whole idea of terroir.
[00:54:38] Mick Wilson: Yeah. That's spelled T-E-R-R-O-I-R, terroir. Yeah, it's a French term.
[00:54:42] Mike Johnson: Terroir. So that's the environment that the grapes are growing in, and that, um, as a som you had to smell the wine and know where is this from? What side of the river did this grow on? What, not only what grape, but you know, yeah, the vintage, the year, the e- all the things about it, but the terroir is what really fascinates me, and here's where it really hit me. So when I started... My wife is from Northern California, so she, uh, is from Mendocino and, uh, worked and lived in, uh, Sonoma, and she went to, uh, Sonoma State. So when I bring home a wine from Sonoma and I open it and pour her a glass, she'll sit there, smell it, taste it. She's like, "Ah, this, this feels like home.
This tastes like home." I'm like, she has no idea that it's a Sonoma wine. She's like, "That's from Sonoma, right?" And I'm like, "How did you know that?" She's like, "It just feels like home to me. I know, I know where I'm from, and that wine is where I'm from." And I'm like,
[00:55:47] Mick Wilson: That's so cool.
[00:55:48] Mike Johnson: it's home, you know? So, uh, you know, wine is about home.
It's about belonging. It's about being where you're supposed to be with who you're supposed to be. It is family. It is relational. It's not about getting a, a quick buzz. It's about enjoying conversation, about good lunch with good people and, and, uh, sharing wine and the divine together. It, it really is about
[00:56:11] Mick Wilson: So good. Yes
[00:56:13] Mike Johnson: and I love that terroir just kinda brings it all together for me
[00:56:17] Mick Wilson: Yeah. And so for those listeners, when you go wine tasting, ask the server, and again, terroir, T-E-R-R-O-I-R, ask them, "What is the terroir?" And a good wine server will light up. They will tell you why the wine tastes the way it does. It's a ca- it's a sense of place, and you will learn so much. I'm going up to, tomorrow, going up to Willamette Valley, Oregon.
I'm gonna ask everyone I g- all the wine servers, "Tell me about the terroir." And they're just gonna run for, you know, riff. Uh, just not run, but, uh, but, but, but it, but, but, but
explain it.
[00:56:50] Mike Johnson: it.
They'll run with it
[00:56:51] Mick Wilson: then, and then wine becomes like, oh my gosh, this pinot here tastes different than the pinot here, and it's so fun.
So fun. Hey Mike, thanks. I appreciate this. We can do the... I wanna do this again with some... 'Cause man, your brain, I just love, uh, going down some of these rabbit holes and thinking. But I also like what you do, is you bring back that word, that meta-narrative, the big picture, and you always take your, your stuff and place it under there.
Where we, where are we in the story? The whole biblical theology. What's going on? What's the author's intent? What are they trying to communicate? And then you look at that within the whole big story. I, I think context, of course. But the, but what you've done, uh, on that with the whole Antioch, uh, school content and how that has shaped my life, I, I thank you profoundly because you've not just shaped me with that content from Antioch, but how to teach better, and then how to ask good questions.
So thank you. So cheers, man. I appreciate you, brother.
[00:57:48] Mike Johnson: yeah. My pleasure
[00:57:50] Mick Wilson: I will see you soon for, what do we call it? We, we, we don't call ourselves a think tank on
[00:57:55] Mike Johnson: It's, we're Theo
geeks.
[00:57:56] Mick Wilson: Theo Geeks or the Drink Tank, I don't know which one. Anyway, hey, appreciate you and we'll, we'll, we'll talk soon.
[00:58:02] Mike Johnson: To be continued.
[00:58:03] Mick Wilson: To be continued.
Love it. All right
[00:58:06] Mike Johnson: See you, bud
